What does "unreasonable or disproportionate" use of an unlimited service mean for Fizz Internet? (pa
This is a follow up of my previous question about Fizz's definition of "unlimited": https://community.fizz.ca/questions/2198674-unlimited-mean-fizz-internet
The last paragraph of Section 10 of the Service Agreement says:
You must not use or permit the use of the services (unlimited or not) in an illegal or improper manner, or the provisions set out in section 15.4 might apply. That is the case, for example, if the use of the services (unlimited or not) is unreasonable or disproportionate, if it jeopardizes the services or our network, if it harms us or any other person, or if it is against the law.
Fizz chat support first said it meant illegal downloading of content. But that is redundant as illegal behavior is already explicitly addressed multiple times separately. Then they said it refers to spamming. But again, that is also illegal. Then they escalated the question, to which the email reply was that it refers to commercial use. Once again... that is covered in a previous paragraph of the same section.
Not to mention, none of those explanation really fit "unreasonable or disproportionate". These are highly subjective and relative terms, and are not defined in the agreement.
Does anyone know what "unreasonable or disproportionate" use of unlimited internet means with Fizz?
Answers
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Apologies, this is a repost due to accidentally selecting "best answer" while trying to reply to Mike in my previous question posted here: https://community.fizz.ca/questions/2220470-unreasonable-disproportionate-use-unlimited-service-mean-fizz-internet
To answer you, Mike, from the previous question, yes I have read such asymmetric, overarching terms in bank and credit card agreements. It doesn't mean it's a good thing and to the extent possible I do ask them about their terms as well.
In this case, "unlimited" appears to potentially have some subjective and undefined limitations which have not been clarified even by asking staff. What is clear is that "unlimited" does not mean the same thing as what most people think it does.
P.S. Mike, could you perhaps edit your answer in the previous question to include a link to this question? It would make it easier to follow.13 -
I agree with you, but I believe that the paragraph is there to protect them.
Unreasonable or disproportionate respect of what?
Since disproportional can also be this
you are using 100G/day and I am using 100M/day, for sure I will not jeopardize the service.14 -
Exactly, disproportionate to what? That is an arbitrary or at least opaque metric. Meanwhile staff suggested that breaching that would imply wrongdoing on the part of the customer...
So to avoid this, I should know what to avoid, yes?
Btw, there are many many terms and clauses to protect them.
Unlimited clearly does not mean without limits to the type of behavior. It suggests without limits to the bandwidth used, to which there is a logical maximum (full bandwidth at the plan's speed 24hrs/day). Traffic management is one form of limitation, and the policy for this is defined.
The "unreasonable or disproportionate" is in addition to all that. So.. what does it mean?14 -
They don't say so there is no reason to be worried about. You can threat to leave if they give you a notice.
I did it 15 years ago when my then unlimited Internet ISP told me to slow down. They never bothered me again until now, I left them for Fizz. Haha15 -
Just be logical my friend ,. Don't abuse.10
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I wouldn't worry too much13
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"They don't say so there is no reason to be worried about." -> I think you have it backwards.
If terms are made clear, then there's no worry because you know what to expect. If the terms are unacceptable, you simply don't sign up.
If terms are not defined, it creates uncertainty and potential bad surprises.12 -
Don't worry , Be happy!11
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About 15 years ago, I had a colleague who told me that Videotron has sent him a letter saying he was making unreasonnable amount of downloads. He was downloading a lot of movies from China (his home country) and using VPN to connect. Videotron could not see the content of the traffic (due to the VPN), but did see many GB travelling to and from his IP. Videotron actually told him he was among the top 5 internet accounts with unreasonnable amount of data traffic! He was actually quite proud of being told that!!!
My colleagues response was that he was paying a lot for unlimited data (at the time, it was very expensive), so simply continued.
Back to 2020, Fizz (and Videotron) are trying to make sure no one consumes all the network resources especially if there is a compromise for the other subscribers.
I could see examples of unreasonnable use, that is NOT illegal, nor NOT commercial.
For example:
- Streaming in 4K (60 frames per second) uncompressed your 15 security cameras to a cloud storage
- Streaming your TV channel (from your HDHomeRun using antenna and regular TV signals) to your cottage all day and all night
- Using your home internet as a VPN server when you are travelling and decide to do a full backup of your Synology server you carry around everywhere, and repeat every day :-)
There are other possibilities and yes, there are people who do have illeagal traffic or commercial activities. But the question was to see what could "unreasonable or disproportionate" mean.
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Excellent answer, André. That's the most intelligent response I've seen so far, including from staff, as it addresses the "unreasonable or disproportionate" aspect while distinguishing from illegal or commercial activity.
What happened with your colleague's internet usage?
Logically, there will always be top X users of data traffic (unless there are no users :P ). The only question is how the usage is distributed among the users. i.e. how much of an outlier a given top user is.
Based on that anecdote, it would seem that 24/7 use of the connection at full throttle would be frowned upon even for an "unlimited" plan. I like your examples!
This just circles back to the question of what is meant by "unlimited", other than "reasonable and proportionate".
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Just be logical!
Dont abuse about this service, you wont have problems.9 -
@hc0468. I don't remember how it ended but I do remember that my colleague continued his download habits. He always referred back to the user agreement where unlimited is supposed to be unlimited.
But to your point, how does one define "unreasonable". To Vidéotron it was using much more bandwidth than typical users, to others it could be unnecessary data transfers... Legally speaking, this one is definately in a grey zone!
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Just use your judgement. If you think you are abusing, then you probably are.6
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@André Well that's a very interesting colleague who at least knows to read legal details! I wonder if he was part of the motivation for this vague terminology in the Service Agreement.
It's certainly a grey zone with "unlimited" and "unreasonable or disproportionate" not clearly defined, and increasingly it seems perhaps that is intentional.
To those suggesting "don't worry", "be logical", "don't abuse", "use your judgement", the above anecdote should be enough to see why those are flimsy answers. Those terms and ideas are highly subjective and not consistent across different people, companies, and interests. They are merely assumptions that others think like you. Clearly false.
Think like a programmer or lawyer. Then it becomes clear none of those notions mean much without prior definition and agreement.10 -
Sadly, what "unreasonable or disproportionate"means remains vague. But they probably want to prevent to do P2P 24/7 and use a residential service for commercial usage, etc.
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Excellent article, Sebastien. There is an English version too: https://ocmagazine.org/en/topics/limits-unlimited-internet
Allow me to quote from the article:
In July the CRTC created the Internet Code, the Internet equivalent of the Wireless Code for mobile phones. The Wireless Code, which will go into effect January 31, 2020, stipulates that limits on use must be clearly stated to customers, that all communications between the provider and the consumer must be in plain language and, more specifically, that overage charges for unlimited services are prohibited. The Wireless Code also stipulates that, in general, “no limit shall be imposed on an unlimited service unless the applicable limits are explained in the service provider’s fair use policy.”
I did ask for the "fair use" policy, but this is not provided, except for the traffic management policy. As far as I can tell "unreasonable or disproportionate" may not be sufficiently defined, and may not be in compliance with the requirement of the Code: https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/internet/codesimpl.htm
A service provider must not limit the use of a service purchased on an unlimited basis unless these limits are clearly explained in the fair use policy.
The only question I see is whether the Code applies to Fizz right now. It does apply to Videotron.
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@Jay Thanks for the reply. While that may be a good enough answer for most people at a practical level, it is not sufficient without defining what you mean by "responsible" and "causing havic [sic] on our servers".
Would it be possible to amend the Service Agreement to be more precise by defining terms and including a "fair use" policy if necessary?5 -
Great documentation4
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I assume they mean engorging the network by constantly transferring large amounts of data, such as by constantly backing large files to the cloud. Most users won't have this problem, but if you use your connection for commercial purposes or are a super heavy user, they might throttle you, I suppose.2
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@Vincent It would be better not to assume.
The idea that "unlimited" applies only to light users renders the term not only meaningless but misleading.
I have found no throttling policy mentioned, but there is a traffic management policy, which applies only for the upload of the 120 Mbps plan and only during times of congestion: https://fizz.ca/en/faq/internet-traffic-management-policy4
